M_Parallel
Hauptthema: |
Dieser Beitrag wurde vom Moderator LatteBMW am 17.12.2011 um 17:39:16 aus dem Forum "Geplaudere" in dieses Forum verschoben.
Hello members,
Since I'm not a native German speaker, could somebody please explain to me since when BMW Syndikat started to tag the fotostorie foto's?
I tried updating my fotostorie, but when I did a preview, I noticed all my foto's being tagged with BMW Syndikat logo. So I hit the back button and decided to no longer updates, as I don't want these tags.
Legally speaking, I think this is also a violation of copyright laws, as all foto's places are of members own pictures. BMW Syndikat can't just tag a foto that they don't own with their own tags.
Now I haven't found a topic or announcement where this was made known to its members.
Can anybody please enlighten me?
Danke.
Bearbeitet von: LatteBMW am 17.12.2011 um 17:39:16 |
| Nicore |
I know what you mean, but besides the fact that some good pictures are
ruined by the huge tag, I never thought about any copyright violations.
I think there a two facts that belong together in this case.
Many users don't have own webspace for their pictures and the forum offers an upload service.
In the last years more and more pictures (shown in the forum) of well equipped cars appeared
on ebay for selling parts, even though this cars or their owner have nothing to do with the dealer
or their car parts.
To prevent this kind of picture stealing the fotos are automatically tagged.
Just a small number of users edit their pictures and give them a own tag or copyright information.
If you don't want you pictures tagged, simply use own webspace or stick to free pictures webspace
like "Imageshack" oder something like that. But with free webspace you may encounter low traffic
speed and loading errors. |
| M_Parallel |
Thank you for your reply.
Well to answer to your 2 points, I can be clear
1. It's nice that BMW Syndikat "Protects" my pictures from being used on Ebay, but honestly, that is the responsibility of the owner of the picture. It doesn't matter if you show the pic here, or someplace else on the internet. If you don't tag it, it can and will be used by others.
I don't need BMW Syndikat to do this, at least not without asking my permission first.
2. This is a big one: All the pictures in my fotostorie are hosted on my own webspace, as I don't want to upload my personal pics on some imageshack(-type) service. I want them on my pesonal space only. So that is what I do and pay for.
And that is why I find this a huge issue. Even though I host my own pictures, BMW Syndikat still tags them(!!) And that is what I don't want to happen at all. They didn't even ask for this.
Do you know of any announcement they made?
|
| Nicore |
To get this right... you photos on your webspace linked in your fotostory
are also tagged?! I don't see any forum tag there?
btw: nice car :)
Bearbeitet von: Nicore am 29.11.2011 um 10:04:54 |
| M_Parallel |
Zitat:
To get this right... you photos on your webspace linked in your fotostory
are also tagged?! I don't see any forum tag there?
btw: nice car :)
Bearbeitet von: Nicore am 29.11.2011 um 10:04:54
(Zitat von: Nicore)
No they are not tagged, because I haven't updated my fotostory after they began doing this. This is what I tried to explain in the first post: I was updating my fotostorie and luckely I pressed on "preview" first. In the preview I suddenly saw all my pictures being tagged and I was like, No way!? I then pressed the back button and everything was okay again. But this means, as said in my first post, that I can no longer update my journal. That they tag pictures that are hosted on their own webspace is bad enough. Even though they host the picture, doesn't make them owner of the picture. And in my case it's even worse as I host my own pictures. That is pure copyright infringement. I'm surprised no one from BMW Syndikat has responded so far. And: thanks. |
| Nicore |
Ah okay, now i got the point.
I haven't updated my fotostory for a looong time as well. |
| M_Parallel |
Can someone direct me, or this post to a BMW Syndikat moderator/owner? |
| Imotski |
search for "jogi" |
| M_Parallel |
Zitat:
search for "jogi"
(Zitat von: Imotski)
Okay, thank you! |
| M_Parallel |
I can't believe such a serious, LEGAL issue topic has not been looked into by a moderator/owner of BMW Syndikat.
But someone did move this topic.
|
| BILAL |
Have already talked to Jogi?
Everyone here takes legal issues very seriously. This is an issue for you obviously and but I am left to assume that noone else is bothered thats could be why it was never addressed previously.
I am also sure that there was an incident that caused the photos to be tagged in the first place.
The person who knows for sure would be Jogi. |
| M_Parallel |
Do you have an email address or any link where I can contact him? Maybe others aren't aware about the issue. Right now my pictures aren't tagged, but that is only because I haven't upgraded to the new format. But when I want to update my journal, this is automatically done and my (personal) pics, which are hosted on my own domain are tagged. You say "everyone here take legal issues very seriously". This implies that you are also part of BMW Syndikat, or know people from here closely. Could you maybe point out this topic to Jogi? Thanks. Zitat:
Have already talked to Jogi?
Everyone here takes legal issues very seriously. This is an issue for you obviously and but I am left to assume that noone else is bothered thats could be why it was never addressed previously.
I am also sure that there was an incident that caused the photos to be tagged in the first place.
The person who knows for sure would be Jogi.
(Zitat von: BILAL)
|
| BILAL |
Referring to "This implies that you are also part of BMW Syndikat, or know people from here closely" portion of your post. I do hav3e a lot of friend here and have been a part of BMW Syndikat for many years and have lots of friends here.
When looking through the rest of the forum you will see the care taken by all of the users to give the best advice possible. Both out of a love of BMW's and for a love of each other. Noone wants to see anyone hurt in any way shape or form.
I will get word to Jogi for you.
|
| Jogi |
Hi there,
to make a statement on this: it is no violation and completly legal because this is pointed out in our Ts&Cs on wich you agree during your registration process.
And as Nicore said - one point is the copy protextion of the photos - the other point is the hot linkage of photos - hostet at bmw-syndikat - but hot-linked in other forums.. so they have the benefit and it looks like photos from them but we have the traffic..
thats the reson for the copyright logo.. reason for no longer allowing external hostings is: because old stories are often no longer maintained by their authors - and very often external linked photos disappear - and the story is broken. We avoid this by only allowing photos being hosted on our own servers - so availability is garanteed.
regards |
| M_Parallel |
Hello Syndikat Admin,
Just saw your post.
I understand the reasoning and it makes logic, up to a certain point.
And I am sure it is legal to do it for pictures that are hosted on your own servers. However it is not legal, under any law, to tag pictures taken by any person and tag them with your own logo's, specially if they aren't even hosted on your own servers.
I don't know the exact text and it's been years since I signed up here, but I'm sure there is no clause that said I agree with this.
Better yet, if something isn't legal, it can not me made legal by putting it in some Terms of Service text.
Example: you can not steal, we all know it is illegal. You can never put something illegal and make it legal by putting it in a ToS and then have people agree with it.
So if I sign up here and you say in the ToS that I agree that stealing is legal, that is not possible. It doesn't make stealing legal, never.
Same goes for the pictures. You can never pass of someone elses work as your own, which you do when you tag them with your own logo's. It's still legal.
You could easily check when journals were last updated and if it's been a long time, you can just delete them.
I was very active in keeping up my journal (fotostorie) but I had to, because I don't want my pictures being tagged (illegally).
Which makes for a nice self fulfilling prophecy: you don't want journals that are not up to date, but by doing the tagging you make people don't want them to be kept up to date.
Also, it's not very polite to change ToS without warning people beforehand. I certainly didn't agree with any changed ToS.
But as I am sure this message won't make any differences, I guess my journal will stay updated to the last time I editted it. |
| Nicore |
Zitat:
Which makes for a nice self fulfilling prophecy: you don't want journals that are not up to date, but by doing the tagging you make people don't want them to be kept up to date.
(Zitat von: M_Parallel)
That's why my last update was April 2010... |
| BILAL |
Fotostories
Beim Anlegen einer privaten Fotostory bitte darauf achten, dass diese auch im richtigen Unterforum der Fotostories gepostet wird. Pro Fahrzeug bitte nur eine Fotostory in der jeweiligen modellspezifischen Kategorie anlegen. Weitere Fotostories in anderen Kategorien (CarHifi-Umbauten) sind natürlich erlaubt. Es dürfen ausschliesslich Fotos / Bilder für die eigene Fotostorie auf den Syndikatserver geladen werden. Bildmaterial für allgemeine Forumsbeiträge oder andere Zwecke gehören nicht dort hin. Das Einbinden Markenrechtlich geschützter Zeichen und Symbole (z.B. des BMW Zeichens) ist nicht gestattet. Als Vorschau-Bild darf nur ein Bild des Fahrzeuges eingefügt werden.
Auch innerhalb der Fotostories gelten die o.g. Regeln bezüglich kommerziellen Angeboten und generellen Posting-Regeln. Das Ändern von unwichtigen Daten und Fakten, welches nur zum „nach-oben-pushen“ der Story dient, ist zu unterlassen. Fotostories können in der eigenen Signatur und auch über das Profil verlinkt werden.
Kleinanzeigen
Wir bieten nur die Plattform zum Austausch von Angeboten - wir sind weder für die Richtigkeit, die Preise, die Abwicklung oder die Qualität verantwortlich. Genauso wenig für die Ehrlichkeit und Richtigkeit der Identitätsangaben der Käufer / Verkäufer.. einige Hinweise zum sichereren Handeln findet Ihr [fehlerhaft_angegebener_Link:]topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=54204[/fehlerhaft_angegebener_Link]hier.
Bei der Anzeigenerstellung müssen möglichst viele Daten zu den Artikeln angegeben werden. Pro Verkaufsanzeige darf nur ein Artikel angegeben werden. Dabei ist die Angabe eines realistischen Preises pflicht.
Unbedingt bei der Abwicklung unser Transaktionstool benutzen und Bewertungen abgeben.
Das gewerbliche Nutzen der Anzeigen ist nicht gestattet. Dies gilt auch, wenn man kein offizielles Gewerbe gemeldet hat aber regelmäßig Produkte zur reinen Gewinnerzielung anbietet.
Userprofil und persönliche Daten
Die angegebenen Daten sind größtenteils freiwillig. Wenn Daten aber angegeben werden, so müssen diese der Wahrheit entsprechen. Als Profilfoto darf nur ein Personenfoto der eigenen Person eingefügt werden - kein Bild des Fahrzeuges, eines Avatars oder ähnliches. Mit der Einstellung und Angabe von Daten stimmt jeder Benutzer zu, daß diese auch angezeigt werden.
Rechte an Daten und Inhalten
Alle eingegebenen Daten - egal ob Beiträge, Fotostories, Kleinanzeigen, hochgeladene Fotos etc. werden uneingeschränkt dem BMW-Syndikat zur Nutzung zur Verfügung gestellt. Das Mitglied stellt selbst sicher, daß es die Rechte zur Veröffentlichung dieser Daten besitzt und keine anderen Rechte verletzt. Alle Daten werden dem BMW-Syndikat ausdrücklich zur Weiterverwendung zur Verfügung gestellt. Eine Löschung aller eingegebenen Beiträge kann nicht gefordert werden. Lediglich personenbezogene Profildaten können durch eine Profillöschung / -sperrung für die Öffenltichkeit entfernt werden.
**********************
Translated from Google:
Corrections from Bilal:
Photo Stories
When creating a photo story private please make sure that this is also posted in the correct sub-forum of photo stories. Please create only one vehicle per photo story in the respective model-specific category. More photo stories in other categories (car hi-conversions) are of course allowed. It may only be downloaded photos / images for your own Fotostorie on the syndicated server. Pictures for general forum posts or other purposes are not out there. The inclusion of legally protected trademark characters and symbols (such as the BMW logo) is not permitted. As a preview picture may be an image of the vehicle can be inserted.
Also in the photo are the stories o.g. Rules regarding commercial offers, and general posting rules. The change of unimportant data and facts, which only serves to "push the UP" the story is to be omitted. Photo stories in their own signature and can be also linked from the profile.
Classifieds
We only provide the platform for the exchange of offers - we are not responsible for the accuracy of the prices, the settlement or the quality. Nor for the honesty and accuracy of the identity information of the buyer / seller .. Several tips for safer behavior is your [fehlerhaft_angegebener_Link:] topic.asp TOPIC_ID = 54 204 [/ fehlerhaft_angegebener_Link] here?.
In the ad creation process as possible, many data are given to the articles. Classified ads must be only one per article indicates. Here, the provision of a realistic price is mandatory.
Necessarily in handling our transaction tool use and give ratings.
The commercial value of the ads is not allowed. This also applies if you have reported but no official business regularly offers products for pure profit.
User profiles and personal data
The given data are largely voluntary. If data is specified but, they must be truthful. As a profile photo, only one photo of the person's person shall be inserted - no picture of the vehicle, an avatar or something similar. With the adjustment, and disclosure of data, each user agrees that these are also displayed.
Rights to data and content
All data entered - regardless of whether contributions, photo stories, classifieds, photo uploads, etc. without restriction to the BMW syndicate made available for use. The member is confident that it owns the rights to publish these data and violates any other rights. All data are the BMW syndicate expressly made for further usage. A deletion of all entered contributions can not be claimed. Only personal profile data can be removed by a profile deletion / inhibition to the public. |
| BILAL |
So that plus a lot more is what you signed up for. If you need help finding where all of that is...just let me know.
Bearbeitet von: BILAL am 25.04.2012 um 10:19:59 |
| M_Parallel |
Bilal,
My german is only limited, so I don't understand all that legal stuff.
But in all fairness, the point is pretty simple (if you aks me).
- If Syndikat hosts the pics, fine tag them.
- If I host them on my own space, so it doesn't take away anything from Syndikat's bandwith, don't tag them. It's easy to check that.
They have no legal reason whatsoever to tag pics that I take. You can't claim copyright on something that you don't own. I think just hosting them doesn't even make this legal.
If I give you a document that says "I will hereby give all my possesions to person X" (X being me in this example) and you sign it.
If you take this to court, the judge will tear up that contract instantly. |
| Nicore |
Zitat:
So that plus a lot more is what you signed up for. If you need help finding where all of that is...just let me know.
(Zitat von: BILAL)
The possibility to upload fotos directly to the Syndikat server is new. Also the automatic tagging function. We signed up here way before this update when external hosting was still possible. The bad thing is, that you don't have a choice. Upload photos to the Syndikat server, fine, let them be tagged. But let there be still the possibility to use external storage for advanced users. |
| BILAL |
Translated from Google:
Corrections from Bilal:
Photo Stories
When creating a photo story private please make sure that this is also posted in the correct sub-forum of photo stories. Please create only one vehicle per photo story in the respective model-specific category. More photo stories in other categories (car hi-conversions) are of course allowed. It may only be downloaded photos / images for your own Fotostorie on the syndicated server. Pictures for general forum posts or other purposes are not out there. The inclusion of legally protected trademark characters and symbols (such as the BMW logo) is not permitted. As a preview picture may be an image of the vehicle can be inserted.
Also in the photo are the stories o.g. Rules regarding commercial offers, and general posting rules. The change of unimportant data and facts, which only serves to "push the UP" the story is to be omitted. Photo stories in their own signature and can be also linked from the profile.
Classifieds
We only provide the platform for the exchange of offers - we are not responsible for the accuracy of the prices, the settlement or the quality. Nor for the honesty and accuracy of the identity information of the buyer / seller .. Several tips for safer behavior is your [fehlerhaft_angegebener_Link:] topic.asp TOPIC_ID = 54 204 [/ fehlerhaft_angegebener_Link] here?.
In the ad creation process as possible, many data are given to the articles. Classified ads must be only one per article indicates. Here, the provision of a realistic price is mandatory.
Necessarily in handling our transaction tool use and give ratings.
The commercial value of the ads is not allowed. This also applies if you have reported but no official business regularly offers products for pure profit.
User profiles and personal data
The given data are largely voluntary. If data is specified but, they must be truthful. As a profile photo, only one photo of the person's person shall be inserted - no picture of the vehicle, an avatar or something similar. With the adjustment, and disclosure of data, each user agrees that these are also displayed.
Rights to data and content
All data entered - regardless of whether contributions, photo stories, classifieds, photo uploads, etc. without restriction to the BMW syndicate made available for use. The member is confident that it owns the rights to publish these data and violates any other rights. All data are the BMW syndicate expressly made for further usage. A deletion of all entered contributions can not be claimed. Only personal profile data can be removed by a profile deletion / inhibition to the public. |
| M_Parallel |
Bilal,
"Rights to data and content
All data entered - regardless of whether contributions, photo stories, classifieds, photo uploads, etc. without restriction to the BMW syndicate made available for use. "
Still leaves in the middle whether or not BMW Syndikat claims these data and content as theirs (which would be illegal).
If you post a picture of something on my website, I can never claim ownership to that piece of work. |
| BILAL |
Ownership is clearly not claimed. But what is clearly stated is "made available for use". Which means a Syndikat Logo can be put on it.
Now, I'm no lawyer. But that part sounds clear.
Your original question about copyrights I think Jogi covered. If you have your photos copywrited then agree to the Terms and Services here, you have made the choice to violate your own copyright. Not us (Syndikat).
|
| M_Parallel |
How can I violate my own copyright? You can't do that.
But maybe we should stop the discussion, as BMW Syndikat will not change their ToS.
I still think it's a bad move. Why they want to tag pics they don't own in the first place is a complete mistery to me.
The reason given, I already explained, is a self-fufilling prophecy. More reason to not so it.
But in the end, nomatter what BMW Syndikat does, it's not very nice to tag piectures that
1. They don't own. And more importantly
2. That are not even hosted on their own servers.
If you want to use Syndikat's servers, okay, then I can see a small bit of logic in the tagging, but when someone like me, only puts a picture up that is hosted on my own server, then such picture should never be tagged like BMW Syndikat is the host. Because I pay for the data traffic, not Syndikat.
This should be so logical, that it needs no explenation.
Too bad though, as this means I can no longer update my Fotostorie, which I always enjoyed. |
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